Penn hip before bite training? - Page 2

Pedigree Database


by Hundmutter on 20 May 2020 - 14:05

ValK yes while there are some dogs which will carry on until they collapse, many dogs will let you know when they have had enough, as GK1 says. He is also right though, that it depends on the handler spotting this. How often have you run into people who could not 'read' their dogs ?
So there have to be some messages of caution about not impacting growth plates of joints while pups are still young, because otherwise those same idiots who let their dogs chase balls in the heat to the point of becoming ill from exhaustion have nothing to guide their puppy rearing.
Above advice on alternative kinds of exercise all good stuff.

by apple on 20 May 2020 - 14:05

Perhaps mass wasn't the best term to use, but swimming strengthens muscles and usually strengthened muscles are are larger as the result or training and if not, they are at least denser, which technically is an increase in mass. It is not akin to a body builder building muscle mass.

by StayCivil on 20 May 2020 - 19:05

This kind of brings me to another q. We have an inground pool and she is very interested in it. Would like to get her swimming . Not sure how to go about it.
Put leash on and pull her onto first step while encouraging her from in the pool? Carry her in and hold her while she calms? She is 6 months so not sure where any of this falls as far as making her fearful or forcing her to do something.
Any experience? She loves to play in kiddie pool and water in the woods


by Koots on 20 May 2020 - 20:05

Try just going in near the steps and encourage her to come in, don't force or you will just initiate opposition reflex. She'll come in when she's ready, and will probably be OK swimming quite naturally, but some dogs have an odd 'dog paddle' until they figure out how to hold their head. Just be there to help steady her by holding your hand under her belly if she needs it at first.


by GK1 on 21 May 2020 - 11:05

You can pull her in initially; just have fun attitude never negative. That your pup is H2O curious will make swimming easy. Use the ball (if the drive is there) to lure her in as a reward to play. The solo entry and retrieve will come with practice..leading to the jump on command from the pool ledge or dock - if that’s your goal. Always good to get in there with them for bonding. I toss mine around, play tug, and dunk them completely under. Open water and beach is great but pool allows more control. Here my dogs demo the basics. 

zero edge entry

jump entry

by Rik on 21 May 2020 - 13:05

I live near a large lake, love swimming my dogs and did it for many years for conditioning for shows.

a couple or more of observation:

1. I would not force a dog in the water until there was no other option. it is really not good for the initial experience to be negative.

2. the ones that like it, like it almost from the first visit and will follow you, chase and retrieve a ball, whatever right off the bat.

3. a few will be hesitant but after a while can't resist joining the fun

4. the ones that don't like it, fight going in are never going to like it.




by emoryg on 21 May 2020 - 14:05

Throw the ball in and let her go get it. Great exercise especially for the older guys and gals. The more the merrier. Nothing like a mini pool party for the dogs to cool off and burn off some energy. Not a bad idea to put something large like traffic cones near the steps at each end of the pool as a reference points for the puppies to exit. It can be hard for young pups to locate the steps, especially on longer rectangular pools. I think the old dogs liked having it as a guide as well.


by GK1 on 21 May 2020 - 15:05

I watched a Springer Spaniel at Coronado beach a couple summers back get tossed repeatedly by 4’ waves yet kept barking for more as long as her mom chucked the ball into the surf. Impressive dock diving I saw was a while back in Marin before dock diving was even a sport. Yellow Lab launching off about a 10’ high broken concrete ledge for a big stick his owner was throwing into an ocean inlet, rep after rep. Chilly day too. I doubt much training was required for either dog to perform at those high levels. Lol nor surveyed hip x-rays.

Some dogs just have the inherent drive and physical durability to overcome the obstacles in front of them.


by bantam7 on 22 May 2020 - 21:05

Per any number of studies I've read on the topic PennHIP is objectively better than the traditional hip-extended radiographs (OFA and so on). PH actually tells you the level of laxity present in the hip joint - the primary determinant for HD - and readings are reliable, that is, repeatable in adulthood, as young as 16 weeks old. Hip-extended isn't considered reliable until 2 years old, a small but obviously significant percentage of dogs who pass prelims at 6 mos fail at 2 years, and this isn't even going into the fact that HE is full of oppurtunites for "false negatives" (the very reason why PH was developed).

All vets performing PH have to be trained and tested in the procedure so I would feel reasonably secure going to any that have been certified; it's not a grab bag of skill level and equipment quality like with the traditional x-rays. The dog is asleep, the equipment and procedure are always exactly the same and not subject to personal opinion. PH works by objectively taking measurements with a mechanical tool, not by subjectively "reading" an image.

You can read a short summary by GSD man Fred Lanting here: (more from him here, here, and here) and a few pages from a veterinarian here with various studies cited, some of which you can search up online.

Regarding "making her hips worse" - you can't tighten or loosen hips with environmental factors, but those things can worsen the impact of loose hips.

If it were me personally with a pet dog and I had any concern about her hips, I would go for a PH. If I had no special concern - OFA Good/Excellent (not Fair) or low PH DI scores up through several generations in the pedigree and honest breeder with no history of producing lame pups - I wouldn't feel a need. If she were, say, a serious sport, working, or breeding prospect I would have it done regardless before pouring all the time and money into the training process.

by Rik on 23 May 2020 - 21:05

Quote 2.: "... a bummer when that happens. However, studies have not shown PennHIP to be more reliable in predicting HD than OFA. In fact they show the opposite (JAVMA volume 21 #9 Nov 1, 1997); in referring to OFA: 'The study showed that a preliminary evaluation of Excellent was 100% reliable; a preliminary evaluation of Good was 97.9% reliable; a preliminary evaluation of Fair was 76.9% reliable...'. Also, (Am J Vet Res 1993; 54: pp.1021 - 1042) in referring to PennHIP: '12% of the dogs evaluated as normal at 4 months of age by the PennHIP method were later determined to have degenerative joint disease. 48% of the dogs evaluated as abnormal at 4 months of age, 57% evaluated as abnormal at 6 months of age and 38% evaluated as abnormal at 12 months of age by the PennHIP method did not have evidence of degenerative joint disease at 24 months of age'. A second study on the PennHIP method (Am J Vet Res; 1993; 54: pp.1990-1999) concludes that while a distraction index less than 0.4 is 88% reliable for predicting normal hips, a distraction index of greater than 0.4 is only 57% reliable for predicting CHD. While no method would be 100% reliable, it would appear that the OFA method is more reliable at early prediction of CHD. What bothers me most about the PennHIP method is the very high percentage (38 - 57%) of those dogs evaluated early where they predict CHD will develop, but it doesn't. Thus, if you use the PennHIP method for early evaluation, you have a very good chance of eliminating a non-dysplastic dog from your breeding program due to less than accurate results."




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