by duke1965 on 04 April 2020 - 16:04
Valk, if you "teach " a dog to bite, or retrieve, eventually, it will fail when training and rewarding is not kept up to par, also, when you breed with dogs that show trained behaviour rather then genetic qualities, you have same problems or worst in next generation, so for each quality that you want to preserve or reproduce, you better make damn sure that the adult dog you buy isnot a trained up circusdog
by Koots on 04 April 2020 - 16:04
Valk - I don't understand how you don't see stubbornness/possession in that pup. The person has something, the pup wants it and will take it. When pup has something (pipe, sleeve), he wants to keep it, does not give it up easily, even having to be lifted off the ground to let go of sleeve. If you don't see that as an expression of stubbornness/possession, then please explain how you DO see it, and how you would test for natural possession and stubbornness.
by Centurian on 04 April 2020 - 19:04
Valk and I are not disagreeing with your premise . We are saying that there is more to what you write . Duke forget the word drive for a moment , just forget it . If you hang on to all that you know , and you know a lot that we at times agree wit, then you will never see anything more beyond that .
So yes , there is a difference between , and read this Duke , innate predispositioned autonomic behaviors / responses that a dog exhibits through behavior and learned behaviors that look similar. . Those same behaviors can be expressed in a dog by shaping , manipulating a dog . We understand that you want to see and test for dogs that show those predispositions naturally to behavior . Valk and I agree with you on this and we also agree from many other threads that this is lacking in the breed - predispositions for certain behaviors .
The problem is that drive does not mean that the dog's behavior is innate , it does not mean to state what the motive is of the dog , what the dog is thinking , feeling at the time prior to and during the behavior , nor what it's motives are. And working with dogs ALL of those play a role and are impirtant. Dogs are not and were not meant to be programmed robots. I had given a picture of two puppies playing , chasing each other .. so I ask you is that play drive or prey drive. They are playing , and chasing is a component of prey . But making prey is the act of killing not chasing . One puppy chasing another puppy if you think in drives I ask , is that puppy predatory rather than defensive ? The description drive says nothing about what is actuallun occuring or anything about each puppy . We have to be careful in watrching videos , or assessing dogs /puppies that we are not limitting ourselves in actually understanding that puppy.
So rhetorically : you see a puppy not letting go of a bite. Many think wowww, this puppy is great . Woww , this puppy really wants to posses. I say ... MAYBE ... Why Duke , because of the Motivation , the thoughts within this dog , the feelings etc etc I consider . I analyze : the kind of bite[ and categories that define that kind ] , the quality , the intensity the amount of the bite, from where does the behavior originate too . etc etc , Everything to me matters . So now I have to think about a puppy relentless on the bite never letting go : is this a dog that will never want to take my direction because it is so bent on not giving up the bite due to it's genetics , Hmmmm. Is this behavior genetic and so ingrained , innate in this dog that I will not be able to ovecome this because this is like the color of the dogs eyes , and those genetics will never ever be changed. Or am I looking aty a very very good determined motivated pupp that will happily learn to out when told to do so Hmmmm . I have a decision to make about this puppy as it is biting . I have to evaluate that behavior and that puppy. I don't give a hoot about 'Drive per se . I need information , accurate reliable information and the answers to my questions as I assess this puppy .
Ohhh the dog is possesive -people just look at see and make a rash judgement. I don't -Maybe this is so ingrained into the dog , then again maybe not , such that I will never be able to get into this dog's head nor will it ever give anything up when told to do so . It cannot learn to give anything up because innately predispositionedly , genetically I cannot change that any more than I can change the color of the dog's coat. So to see a dog unrtelenting in a bbite I personally don't just jump into the mindset "this dog has great natural drive and possession instinct" . I can't work with a dog that is so genetically pedisposed to not getting off the bite , that it will posses until the earth shakes , because it may be showing me that it will never work with me ! That is just one feature I addresss . I have to correctly assess and consider EXACTLY what I am seeing . I don't want to assume because something is innate , that it is a great drive in and of itself. I might mis read this dog as having a good possession trait when in fact it does not . So I have to understnad , know , is this trait expressed through it's behavior normal or is it , abnormal ... is this enough or to much ? There are other things that go through my mind too . So I won't potificate longer on this . Except I ask myself : Am I better off with another pup in the litter a little [ I mean alittle bit ] less possessive , but one that I can better work with ? Hmmmm.
So DRIVES** , talking about drives is meaningless to me because traits , predispositioned traits , motivations , CHARACTER ** , and what not , are ALL factors that my mind has to be cognizant of when I see a puppy or a dog.
by xPyrotechnic on 04 April 2020 - 22:04
by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 01:04
@ centurian, what you just described caused the shit we are in all together, finding easyer dogs, to score more points, to work with first time handlers, and by adjustng the dog to the trainingprogram, instead of the other way around, we are where we are today
by Centurian on 05 April 2020 - 09:04
xPyro ... I was wondering if someone was going to ask me that question in light of what I wrote . But please be patient with my while I digress a moment and then I come to answer your question.
A big problem in the dog world is that people use cliche , over used and ill defined words, vague words in dog conversations. So , I say that we are always comunicating with a dog and they are always communicating with us , either consciously or unconsciously ! My key : I know how to talk with my dog and to listen to what my dog is saying to me . Eveybody got that ?? .... So throw those dam stupid words out of your thinking mind and listen to the dog !
For the record I don't care what anyone does with their dogs , what is it to me what they do . . But for xPyro and others interested I write: You would never ever ever see me do what was done in that video ! Never ever ever . If I ever saw one of my friends do that with and to a dog , figuartively of course, I would hit him on the side of the head . I wrote this in a thread beffor - you encourage and allow the dog to bit you and then when it does , not ever having taught it to come off a bite , you force the young puppy to do so by exerting your will over it physicaly .. Just Wonderful .. lesson # 1 how to interact with your dog ..Really ????
xPyro now let me address the 'biting' in your question . So, pertaining to the video , if I want to ask the dog if it would actualy bite me , then I set up a situation that I would have100% complete control over and see if that pup would indeed bite me [ and a way to get it off me without chalenging the dog , conflicting the dog such that it understands what nthe heckmis going on]. I would place an article upon myself , covering my clothes such that I could tear awayhtat covering from myself . I would never in my life pull the pup by the neck off myself nor would I try to pry /open the pup's mouth to get the dog off the bite . I never ever ever pit myself against the dog mentally or physically . This not a battle of the wills or about setting rank status. If I want to see if a dogs me , then that is only what I want to see . I merely ask the dog one thing at a time and I get my answer - THE DOG HAS ALL THE ANSWERS THATYOU CAN ASK IT .. So at first I set the cover/target I applied to myself such that I can strip away , That it is only what the pup can bite , is able or allowed to bite , and nothing else on me . I let the dog bite and I observe. I look at the bite quantitavely and qualitatively - how does the dog bite [ is it fast , is it hard ] , what kind of bite , [ e.g is it a full bite , how long the dog bites , what is does* while* it is biting , what is it's emotional state ...and so on and so on . [ I will get to further talking & evaluating in a moment. ]
Now .. I see a pup in that posted video ... well no one said or carved in stone, that I had to shed what I had placed onto me , but in this case I will opt for that if need be. . This of course would have been on the outside as oposed to a hidden sleeve on the inside d as we do in personal protection teaching . As the dog has bitten the covering that I can oot to shed - I then ask the puppy : " puppy will you opt to give up this bite ? ". How do I ask the pup . For , this is where people do not know how to talk to the dog- they never ever learnhow to talk , dog talk ! I have already understood what the dog likes from it's play prior to this .I know what textures the dog goes crazy for , I know the toys and bite objects , in a manner of speaking ,would die for , etc etc. I have 100% control of context and set the dog up with reasonable expectations by giving the dog a choice of one or two outcomes [ either the dog will come off the bite or it won't ] . To continue , in my body space as the dog is so called biting me [ because I can still shed the bite material from me if I choosed to ] I offer a second more assured biting article , the one the dog has already shown me it goes ballistic for, that it has familiarity with and that is it prefers. I observe : While the dog is biting me , given the choice between the bite on me and the new familiar desiresd bite object when it is presented, what what the pup does . Which bite does it choose . I look to see whether or not the pup would actually come off the bite on it's own accord to bite the other familiar bite item . To repeat: I offer a second , more alluring , irresistible bite for the dog while it is biting me . One or two things is going to happen , yes. Either the dog goes for the second most favorite irresistable bite I present while it is biting me or it stays on the bite , which is on me , unrelentingly , in full possession stubbornly , unyeilding , . If the dog absolutely does not even make an attempt to come off the bite on me for the other most favorite bite object , [ and I would have been enticing the dog correctly with quick jerky movment of his favorite item ] what would you make of that ? The other optional choice : when the pup is presented with the his most favorite bite item and comes off the bite on me and bites that , what would you make of that ? What would the pup be telling me if he leaves the bite on me for his favorite bite toy ? If he leaves biting me for the other bite , then the pup tells me that I can teach this pup 'to out' , no problem ! Because I already have the key** , I can simply later tell the dog that if he follows my cue to out from a bite better things he gets and will happen for him - Dogs need predictable outcones when deciding how to act . A very very very unrelenting stubborn dog on a bite- it is harder to convince this dog , who has the attitude that I do not want to give up what I have , to out , to give it up . It is harder to convince him that he is going to get something better. Maybe his bent /genetics is being 'stubborn' , or something else [ being highly possessive is not the same as being stubborn either , is it. ] ? Being predervering is not the same as being stubborn and unwilling.- there is a difference between those two expressions and phenomena. As far as I personally am concerned , the ' out' like IOP3 is already written on his chest , a dog that will leave biting me for another better bite offered , that is to say because I feel that it can and will work with me-with all other factors needed, I immediately see IPO 3 on the chest of a dog like this [ or some other working achievement ]!
If the pup does not go for the object I still can repeat this scenario modifyingthe proces to see if I still can in some way , get the pup to give up one bite for a better bite. Now if everything under the sun I come up with I get the same , predicatble result of the pup , which is to never ever ever come off the bite.. I am going to entertain the idea that this is ingrained genetically , I'll never change this in the dog because it is most likely a genetic flaw. Or if I can change this attitude , it will be so much time and effort ,and also , who knows about the reliability in the future the dog will still out. I will wonder if this is worth my time and effort compared to other pups /dogs. So I don't expect anyone to agree with me or disagree with me- xPyro , this is my honest ,up front shared thought. Everyone has to think about this and decide for themselves : what is best for their dog. I will tell you xPyro , I forgot about ' how to methodologies ' 25 years ago . Not all dogs are the same ,they all don't think and feel the same , so I cannot interact with all of them as if there is one and only one method , that fits all dogs . I have to see what each individual dog is made up of [temperament] and then I have to talk to that dog in it's own language. !
xPyro .. Playing . I will keep this short . Playing has an element of having fun and at the same exact time it has an element of seriousness. It is akin to Ying/Yang - both exist within one sphere at the same time. So when two pups for example are playing , ok , they are having fun but at the same time they are talking for example to develop rank Status . Puppies being whelped , they play , yet they learn how hard to bite before they hurt someone and/or before that bite hurts them , So again play is fun and at the same time serious. So use the principle in the biting example above to see what you dogs tells*** you ' in play
The last comment is the stupid notion of ' reading the dog '...NO ... rather I say listen to the dog ! It is not body language in and of itself that you have to read !! Whe I hear this from a professional it just tells me how ignorant and how much that professional dog person lacks in understanding about dogs/animals. What is important is what the dog is saying to you and you determine that by observing the Changes** of the body. This tells you about the dog's mental and emotional states , which also gives you insight to the dog's motivations. That is the key- for this will tell you WHY the dog bites , explains to you, HOW the dog bites , etc etc. X Pyro , hope I gave you something to at least ,mull over in your thoughts..
@ Duke . You have perverted and twisted my words , and my meaning .. So there is nothing more I can write to you on this topic . I never never advocated making dogs that are easier to score points or to water down certain instincts / triats . Many times I have agreed and sceonded Valk's notion about the GS changing in repsects. So your last post was quite unfair . I am saying that we have to describe the dog for what it is . And on the surface not everything is what it seems to be- especially if one thinks in categorical cliche descriptive terms ! What we think we see is not always the case or the whole case .
Would you Duke in your right mind want to sell a dog for let's say ,personal protection , that could never ever be taught to be ' called off ' once sent to bite or a dog could not be called to 'out 'reliably when sent ? Who the hell said anything about making mamby pamsy dogs ? Would you want a dog so intense to bite that person rather than saving it and indicating that it found that person [ with exception of sending a dog with the intention needed to bite someone for you purposes / or work requirement ] ? I have done bite work with dogs that I could without problem and incident find someone and they were top notch biters when need be . Goodness gracious in IPO , and some of those dogs 30 years ago could do police tasks , tracked and were very serious in the bite work . Years ago Police Officers , some of my friends , had their police dogs living in their homes while off duty with their children . So please Duke.. I respect that you disagree , but really Duke , putting words in my mouth ... and we wonder why there was a thread about people leaving the PDB . Duke I also was on the cusp of leaving this site too , but I this interesting topic , and then I posted because I know there are people like xPyro, and in the past Juno , that truly want to hear different thoughts and think about dogs ! Duke , to bad you never try to better yourself ..Actually Duke , I am not mad , I don't take this personally , rather I am sorry for you . If you don't listen to other people's ideas , just listen , you don't have to agree , how in the world could you ever learn to listen to a dog - I have more pity for you than being angry with you thinking that I casue shi*** . .
by Hundmutter on 05 April 2020 - 10:04
No indeed, and I sometimes think posters on here get into unnecessary squabbles because they forget that. But how can it be ALWAYS the 'whole case' ?; almost all videos are of puppies, sometimes older dogs, displaying apparently determined behaviours - for a few seconds or minutes in their 'growing up' time. That is over weeks / months, sometimes even the course of 2 or 3 years. What a pup does with its breeder at one stage may not be the same as what that pup does a couple of months later with its new handler / owner. Which may or may not be down to the human in the equation.
Duke [if that's yer man himself in the video ?( and gawd 'elp his clothing budget !)] showed this particular puppy hanging onto his sleeve like grim death, refusing to be persuaded to Release. Now there seems to be an assumption that ONLY working-line pups would hang on like that, to that extent, and that it may predict some extra ability in bitework, at the end of the Training and growing up process. Hhmmm... what if I point out that (in having seen, and played with) many, many puppies over the last 50 or so years, only a few of them from acknowledged 'working' stock, I have come across quite a lot of pups which seemed just as determined to keep their teeth clenched in clothing as did Duke's puppy ? I would be much more impressed with the bit of the video where he gets this youngster to happily pick up metal, than I am with its ability to stay hanging onto a sweater sleeve.
Now because I do not always get the opportunity to follow all those pups throughout their lives, and because I have not trained in either hundsport or protection disciplines, I cannot put hand on heart and suggest that any puppy showing such determined traits (whether you want to term it 'drive' or not) has retained that determination, or put it to good use, when older.
What I can say is that it will normally be trained OUT of any dog that has a different function - whether in the Show Ring, the Pet home, or as a 'Guard Dog' of the sort I used to work with (all noise and no bite). Some pups it might be easier to train - or distract, or socialise - them out of the habit, than others - but IME that isn't always the dogs that you might think it would be, if you took only what they ('seem like') or do @ say 3 or 4 months into account. Referencing back to what Centurian wrote about some dogs not having the brain to learn to adjust their behaviours to their required circumstances.
by ValK on 05 April 2020 - 10:04
seems i should be more clearer and careful in my sayings :)
there are no dog who don't bite. difference only in circumstances and triggers for each dog when to utilize it. teaching to bite i rather meant correct, competent utilization of this ability.
pretty much same with retrieve. could be varying level of interest in such activity but at least i never seen GS dog, who don't do this at all.
if dog has qualities, impossible to obtain by training, i mentioned previously, but at same time that dog is lacking interest to retrieve or do not turns into berserk before necessity arise, would i dismiss that dog? of course not. hands down i would prefer that dog over one with crazy retrieve, prey, excessive love for bite but not sufficient selfconfidence, intelligence, bravery.
can you show the pup in playful state who don't wanna do bite and possess something which at moment in possession of his playmate?
when you feel a happiness and enjoyment, do you feel yourself at same time stressed? most likely no. and so the pup.
question - do this pup would show same proactivity in engagement under somewhat unpleasant/stressful condition or will try to avoid?
my point wasn't about pup's qualities but about informativeness or rather lack of it in provided data.
by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 10:04
cent, lots of things in that last post
first, what you describe very respectfull as STUPID about reading dogs, its just terminology,, your description of what you call listening to the dog, is what is worldwide refered to as reading a dog, maybe 25 years ago they called it listening, now its referred to as reading, Ill copy your description under this line
What is important is what the dog is saying to you and you determine that by observing the Changes** of the body.
so what you refer to as stupid, s actually the same as what you refer to
secondly, you are explaining all about how you woud TEST and work a pup, Im NOT testing or working this pup, ONLY showing natural drives as thats what the topic is about, this pup has no previous training with various items and types of biting tissues, he is till now only biting on the small cloth and grabbed my sleeve, this was not planned, but I show full video, not edited like many people do
finally, you ask if I would sell this dog as a PP dog, hell no, a family and/or PP dog must be the opposite of this, low prey and posession , higher suspicion, every task in the dogworld has an ideal
balance of drives that will make the dog best suitable for that task, and these dogs are NOT for family, PP or even aimed for sport, these dogs are from our breedingprogram for LE dogs, and most likely will end up there, in professional hands,
also, let me give you an example from the test on pups that Dick staal from dutch police wants from pups to be accepted by them, NO changing of objects, the pup should take the object, show interest at other items presented to him, but NEVER let go of first item and not change object
by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 11:04
@ valk, Ive seen many GSD with no interest at all for ball or toy, and others without any interest in bitework , be it over prey or agression, seen showline dogs that had no interest that were put on a fence whit a short line and attacked frontal, putting them in a fight or flight situation, some went iinto avoidance, some fought,
to state that every dog will retrieve or bite is incorrect IMO, and there is my problem with todays training, where dogs are shaped or pressured into things they normally wouldnot do
Ill post a video here of my old boy Ajax , who passed away last year at 15 years of age, never had interest in retrieving or hunting a rag or toy, For Centurian, that is the type of dog I would sell for family protection