Liver color - Page 1

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by jettasmom on 29 December 2019 - 23:12

Is liver recognized by FCI? If so where is it stated?

by duke1965 on 30 December 2019 - 02:12

dont know, but I know a breeder that produced livers in Netherlands and got pedigrees on them as far as I know, also got several health issues in them, dont know if they were colour related or just in that line already, it was linebreeding on black german male

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 December 2019 - 06:12

Doubt it, although I haven't gone for the FCI Standard to look and refresh my memory yet (and you could do that direct, it's on the net) - the original German (SV) one on which all the Standards are based, particularly the FCI's, said weak/dilute pigmentation (inc. blues, livers) was a fault. Therefore livers were not presented for Survey (Korung) or Shown. Being 'recognized' is a whole different ball-game, however; you have to remember that 'Registration' as a GSD is with whichever country's Kennel Club, so in that respect the livers may well be 'recognized'... by AKC.

 

FCI neither registers nor officially recognizes individual dogs.  Apart from keeping their (german) Stud Book, nor do the SV. That is the job of the VDH, the German Kennel Club, for dogs born in Germany. Some livers may have been allowed into SV style competitions in the US (operating 'under FCI Rules') but I suggest if this has happened it has been a mistake; there has been no SV "2nd thought" about colours, just coat length.


charlie319

by charlie319 on 04 February 2020 - 22:02

The short answer is "no". Liver is a diluted color. This is from the Canadian breed standard, which conforms to,FCI/WUSV

 

Colour

The German Shepherd Dog differs widely in colour. Generally speaking, strong, rich colours are to be preferred, with definite pigmentation, and without appearance of a washed-out colour. White dogs are to be disqualified.

Serious Faults Faults of balance and proportion; poor gait, viewed either from front, rear or side; marked deficiency of substance (bone or body); bitchy male dogs; faulty backs; too level or too short croup; long and weak loin; very bad feet; ring tails; tails much too short; rickety condition; more than  four  missing premolars or  any  other  missing teeth, unless  due  to accident; lack of nobility; badly washed-out colour; badly overshot bite. 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 February 2020 - 03:02

Charlie, that is all very well, but Jettasmom please see my post above for an answer that includes more than just the Standard (any country's, or group of countries', Standard) in terms of 'recognition'.

Kennel Clubs do not necessarily limit their Registration to the range of colours in any breed 'recognized' by that Breed Standard. Nor do they confine themselves to the rules of the Showring, (based in those Standards) even while Shows are held under their licensing aegis.  Here in the UK for example despite what our Standard (partly composed by the KC, and agreed with it by breed representative Clubs) says about colour faults, you can still record a litter (or an individual older dog) as being just about any colour known in GSDs.  They only put in an exception of 'colour not recognised' a few years ago when piebald and 'Panda' Shepherds started to appear; you can still register 'Blue', 'Liver' etc, dogs, along with the Black & Tan/Gold/Red spectrum, Bi-colours, Sables (various), Blacks and Whites.  We even still see what we know to be mistaken, impossible combinations, registered: 'Black and Tan and Sable' (ONE pup), as a fairly common one !

I wonder if I were a novice, first-time GSD owner I would actually recognise for myself the description "washed out colour" as defined in the Canadian Standard you quote, Charlie ? After all, some liver GSDs are quite dark in colour, and if previously one has been aware of solid liver shades, as in "chocolate Labradors", the novice might think this description did not apply to their dog.

Perhaps the 'Show Fancy' everywhere has some responsibility, along with their Kennel Clubs, to ensure Standards are clear and unambiguous, and updated to keep pace with the times, e.g. as far as developments in colours available are concerned ?

It does not help that in composing Standards, there has sometimes been a failure to 'bite the bullet' and make certain colours an outright disqualifier, rather than a Fault or 'undesirable' (which we grow to know means if you still choose to put your dog in a Show it will end up at the back of the line).

 

So, knowing what the FCI (or any) Standard says will help with Show, or sometimes other competition, entries ... but is not the same thing as 'recognition' in everyday real-life, and people's breeding etc decisions, if they are not constrained by detailed knowledge of the breed's history. Which a heck of a lot of owners are not !  If the OP had given some indication of WHY she was asking the question, she might have found a more exact answer.


by apple on 05 February 2020 - 08:02

Early views were that liver might be lethal or associated with health issues, but while undesirable, there is no real evidence to support the color is associated health issues.  The famous Marko v Cellerland carried the liver factor.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 February 2020 - 11:02

That is true Apple and there were similar concerns about Blues; not to mention a whole lot of nonsense about Whites.

But if the parent Club (in the GSD case, the SV) wants to rule something out, it should be / have been unambiguous about the fact AND ITS REASONS FOR THE FACT and this applies to all versions of the Standard produced by the various nations' KCs ever since. OR Judging should not be dependent on the colour of the dog at all.


charlie319

by charlie319 on 11 February 2020 - 07:02

Hundmutter: You are right. Most KC (AKC in my country) will register the dog regardless of color or coat. The question was wether it was recognized by FCI. I believe they will register them.






 


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